Large Scale Central

Letter From NMRA President Charlie Getz

General Discussion
#21

The two major factors to any hobby is cost and time. Young people have little of both. Being fairly young (39) I am grateful to have a good job that gives me free time. I’ve always been a fan of trains though. My son, not so much. He likes to build with legos and really likes sci fi stuff. Why push trains on him if he doesn’t like them? My daughter still likes to operate trains with me.

I don’t think the hobby is dieing. Just look at this forum and the new layouts being built. Garden Railroad mag featured a layout that is only three years old. There are lots of new layouts out there.

But, as far as inviting new people, be open. At the ECLSTS there was a layout (or two) which i’ll leave nameless that were not very inviteing. The guys running trains seemed bothered by people asking them questions. If you’re going to display your stuff be prepared to talk. I was at the world’s greatest hobby show in Cleveland oHIo and some of the same thing. The guys on the layout could care less that people were there, you know the ones that paid admission to come see their stuff. One layout though had the right idea, they had people that were there just to talk and answer questions. It was good PR and lots of people were standing around asking questions and listening.

Another thing I have noticed is train clubs that turn into “old man know it all clubs”. It has pushed me away from a few. An HO group I tried to join literally told me if I don’t have brass, they don’t want me. Another group I was in figured i didn’t know a thing since I was in my 20’s. The club I am in now is a good group. Then tend more towards a luncheon social group but we get some trains in there. You always have the nay sayers no matter where you go though.

For the techies, I think the hobby is growing too. Have you seen the iphone controlled trains? The computer systems that operate complex signal systems? While it’s not my thing it is pretty cool. The hobby has to change and evolve or like everything else it will get forgotten and left behind.

Oh well, just my take on the matter.

Terry

#22

It’s just natural evolution: Younger people-different interests.

#23

Terry Burr said:

The two major factors to any hobby is cost and time. Young people have little of both. . . . . . .
But, as far as inviting new people, be open. At the ECLSTS there was a layout (or two) which i’ll leave nameless that were not very inviteing. The guys running trains seemed bothered by people asking them questions. . .

For the techies, I think the hobby is growing too. Have you seen the iphone controlled trains? The computer systems that operate complex signal systems? While it’s not my thing it is pretty cool. The hobby has to change and evolve or like everything else it will get forgotten and left behind.

Oh well, just my take on the matter.

Terry

There are two notable items in this months Garden Railways Magazine. One is the letters sent to Marc (Editor) after he published a provocative editorial decrying the advent of CNC and 3D printing - he claimed it wasn’t “real” scratch building. Consensus was that we’ve always had better and better tools, so the modeling just got better and/or different - but it is still modeling. In the same category are better and better control systems - like iPhone apps or home-made wireless throttles.

The other was the current editorial about how friendly garden railway folk are - which is the antithesis of show layouts with people who don’t want to answer questions!

#24

“…No. I see that generation’s eyes light up with Thomas and Brio and Lego. Come to Cleveland and the NMRA National Convention. Come to the National Train Show and watch the reaction to the Lego exhibit or Thomas…”

Don’t have to go down there to see that !! Just attend ‘SUPERTRAIN’ and you’ll see/hear it every year …even with limited parking (this yr.) the numbers in attendance were similiar to what we had last yr. Peoples were attending the show not just one (or partial) days but both days. As entertainment and with the positive memories attained possibility of mr as a future/existing hobby beyond the yearly show experience.

Also nmra imho is similiar to large international unions take your moneys build fancy hq, a lot of admin’, but when the local (small base)members need assist they get the brush-off or the ‘spin’ from the talking head.

Our local society has done more for moi and the hobby regionally/nationally imho (at $10/yr) than what the nmra asks for …

imho

doug c

p.s. also kudos to the regional garden railway club, ‘RockyMountainGardenRailroaders’ !!

#25

Doug Cannon said:

“…No. I see that generation’s eyes light up with Thomas and Brio and Lego. Come to Cleveland and the NMRA National Convention. Come to the National Train Show and watch the reaction to the Lego exhibit or Thomas…”

Don’t have to go down there to see that !! Just attend ‘SUPERTRAIN’ and you’ll see/hear it every year …even with limited parking (this yr.) the numbers in attendance were similiar to what we had last yr. Peoples were attending the show not just one (or partial) days but both days. As entertainment and with the positive memories attained possibility of mr as a future/existing hobby beyond the yearly show experience.

Also nmra imho is similiar to large international unions take your moneys build fancy hq, a lot of admin’, but when the local (small base)members need assist they get the brush-off or the ‘spin’ from the talking head.

Our local society has done more for moi and the hobby regionally/nationally imho (at $10/yr) than what the nmra asks for …

imho

doug c

p.s. also kudos to the regional garden railway club, ‘RockyMountainGardenRailroaders’ !!

For a taste of Supertrain action

[vimeo]http://vimeo.com/4385374[/vimeo]

One of the reasons why I don’t quite get the “Doom and Gloom” shows.

#26

Are we searching in the wrong age group? Should we be placing our emphesis on recruiting the 40+ hobbiest? They have more time(usually) and more funds for discresionary purchases. They are also looking for more social outlets after years of driving, coaching and the like for their kids.

We do not attempt to recruit kids into a Rail fan clubs or museum restoration clubs, or “or the local “Rod” club”. Model railroadingf has matured from kids playing trains on the livingroom floor to a building(layout, buildings, rolling stock hobby and gardening hobby).

#27

Im sure their are many reasons but I wonder if not having hobby shops around every corner is a reason. When I was younger I could go into a hobby shop and see trains on display and for sale. I remember when Jamesway was around you could get Bachmann ho and n scale trains. Where else can ids buy trains other then the internet. I think at one time walmart and Kmart might have carried trains. We also have to take into consideration that a most today are part of the Baby boomers. That is a huge population. They say todays generation is the next baby boom. Maybe as this generation gets older we will see an increase.

#28

I’ve been into large scale since my mid to late 20’s and dabbled in HO and N scale Since ferever before that…I have 8mm video of me hanging onto a Shay at Cass and not wanting to let go…at age 3 or so…

#29

Shawn (napkin builder) Viggiano said:

Im sure their are many reasons but I wonder if not having hobby shops around every corner is a reason. When I was younger I could go into a hobby shop and see trains on display and for sale. I remember when Jamesway was around you could get Bachmann ho and n scale trains. Where else can ids buy trains other then the internet. I think at one time walmart and Kmart might have carried trains. We also have to take into consideration that a most today are part of the Baby boomers. That is a huge population. They say todays generation is the next baby boom. Maybe as this generation gets older we will see an increase.

Shawn, yes, that could be a factor. But since the generation after me is so much more computer savvy then I am, I am not sure how much of a factor that is. When I was kid I could go with my mom to Murphy Mart and buy a Tyco HO boxcar for a dollar or so. Walmart did carry some of the Bachmann HO Thomas stuff a while back, but that didn’t last long. So yes, trains, of any scale, aren’t as available in stores as they once were.

But, as has been stated before, most “kids” are into instant gratification. Its when folks get older, that they start to appreciate the idea of working at something. Case in point. I had an interesting conversation at a train show. A (younger) gentleman wanted to know where I bought my dual gauge (HO/HOn30) trestle. When I told him I built it, he wanted to know where I bought the kit. I tried to explain that I scratch-built it, but in the end he walked away a bit upset, like I was keeping a secret from him. The concept of building things from scratch is lost on many folks. They are too used to opening a package and setting the item where they want it, instant gratification.

So, I still think we need to plant the seed in the kids. Then we need to try and get the folks middle aged and older, interested in growing the seed that was planted in them as kids.

#30

Last January I visited a train shop in Mesa AZ. I had a very interesting conversation with the owner. He had a lot of N and HO everything there, and No Gscale. His take is the following: The old G scale guys are getting older, eventually unable to keep a Large Scale layout, or just dieing. The hobby is just too expensive for younger train people, and the collections of the large scalers can’t even be sold off. Even though the Phoenix area is rich in large scale layouts, he claimed that there were no new ones appearing, and that slowly the existing ones were closing down. It was pretty depressing for me, a 72 year old train guy.

I do agree with the others that the two most important factors are still Time and money.

#31

This is a situation (“problem” is way too serious a word, IMHO) our club (SVGRS) is and has been addressing for years, with mixed results. We have a modular layout which we take to shows attended largely by people younger than our members. We hand out brochures, answer questions, sometimes we hand out old Garden Railways magazine the club has been given. (Just because we’ve read them doesn’t mean everyone has!) We’ve been working with Boy Scouts in the area to get offer them help in getting their RR merit badges.

We threw a National Convention about a decade ago, and this year we’re hosting the West Cost Regional Meet, and trying to reach non-members (and even non-model railroaders).

Results have been mixed, but we’re holding our own. We are able to replace our attrition, and actually grow slightly.

But it’s a struggle that we all work on.

#32

As I’m said in other posts on this general subject, I’m an optimist noting that three generations of the male side of my family currently are fascinated by trains, to the humerous despair of the female part. But I’ve certainly seen offputting behaviour of the “in group” type. There’s one in this part of the world that seems very cliquey, and quite frankly I’m not into that having dealt with the same sort of thing in N Scale for years; was one of the reasons I changed to large scale.

But looking around me, it’s the others who have achieved the half century or so who are, in general, the ones who are getting heavily into hobbies of whatever sort - golf, wood turning, line dancing, amateur operatics, even refurbishing 1950s and 60s aircraft. As others have noted the younger ones are involved in achieving careers and raising families and those are still pretty full time deals. Where they do have spare time, again as others have noted, they are seeking to maximise the return while minimising the time investment; very unlike the way I pursue the railway hobby. As they age they will seek alternate occupations.

As for large scale literally dying out - I think not. I was in N for years because (a) I could get something up and running and it was relatively inexpensive and (b) I was in the military and moved to new quarters every two or three years - not something that large scale adapts to well but which is one of Ns strong points. However, on retirement those issues disappeared and the benefits of working on something I could actually SEE, together with the other benefits associated with large scale, pushed me to change. I don’t see that altering in the near future unless they find a way of stopping or reversing the aging process, so while regrettably we will continue to lose the more mature members, to include all of us in due course, I reckon we’ll be replaced by the then 50 and 60 year olds.

Steve

#33

"The hobby is just too expensive for younger train people, and the collections of the large scalers can’t even be sold off. "

That strikes me as something of a contradiction. How can the hobby be too expensive if large collections can’t be sold off at any price? Seems to me low-priced estate collections would be just the ticket to get folks into the hobby on the cheap.

Heck, next time this dealer hears of an estate collection that can’t be sold off, have him give me a call! I see an investment opportunity!

Later,

K

#34

Steve Pearson said:

As others have noted the younger ones are involved in achieving careers …

I don’t think it is just achieving, I think it is competing for careers. It is definitely an employers market where there are way too many applicants for the jobs that are available. And to be competitive for those positions the younger people need to be better than the next applicant. The very technology they crave is what is generating part of their dilemma.

I say this because my company was recently purchased by a bleeding edge technology company, and honestly at 61 I am having a difficult time trying to adapt to the blinding pace now being set and expected. I will survive (I hope), but these people are all about little pieces of paper, not what you really can produce.

My tuppence.

Bob C.

#35

Correct me if I am wrong, it seems that G scale is doing much better in the UK then here? Why is that…? Could it be because of the smaller space, cost is not an issue. I also see a lot of nice kits that seem to be much more affordable then our US kits.

#36

Shawn (napkin builder) Viggiano said:

Correct me if I am wrong, it seems that G scale is doing much better in the UK then here? Why is that…? Could it be because of the smaller space, cost is not an issue. I also see a lot of nice kits that seem to be much more affordable then our US kits.

Shawn, I’d venture a guess that since it ‘started’ there it’s more established and with deeper roots it has the chance of lasting through tougher times.

#37

Smaller back yards yes Shawn, small country, smaller outlook maybe, but cost for many is also an issue. Some folks don’t have the spare cash and others. like me, cannot countenance large expediture on ‘big boys toys’. But there does seem to be a sizeable number of folks who do buy the higher ticket models over here and often import from the States.

Cale may also be correct is mentioning the deeper roots but I have to say that when Aristo was imported By Bachmann it gave me and many others, together with Bachmann’s own Big Hauler range, a good selection of low cost and good looking models.

The fact that most European countries are smaller that the USA does mean that model shops tend to be nearer to home but to be honest little has been puchased by me from dealers near to home - they don’t stock large scale or want too high a price. Most of my stock has been from UK dealers distant to me or direct from the States.

#38

A hobby? Teens and now 40-year-olds search for what stimulates THEM – not what can they do themselves to CREATE stimulation. The hobby field remaining is strickly a RTR business “Ready-to-Run.” for instant stimulation Model planes, boats, copters all are assembled.- just add the batteries.

Watch a family eating and permitting their kid brood to play with cell phones and I-pads.
Watch kids leave classrooms - they immediately get on their phones. They got a message, they owe one.

Music for the “stimulate me” group is a floor show for thousands. Where’s the silent audience watching and intently listening to skilled musicians playing memorable music?

Where’s the president of a major English speaking nation encouraging a population of youngsters to learn skills to create their OWN stimulation rather than just watch it.

Can parents waiting to “teach” self-satisfaction interests combat their youngsters constant search for stimulation from others? At what age does a parent start?

#39

Shawn (napkin builder) Viggiano said:

Correct me if I am wrong, it seems that G scale is doing much better in the UK then here? Why is that…? Could it be because of the smaller space, cost is not an issue. I also see a lot of nice kits that seem to be much more affordable then our US kits.

To add to Alans comments, one big advantage the Brits and the Euros still have is there is no stigma to building a small layout with less than 8’ dia curves. Layouts with R1 curves are still quite normal unlike here where I cannot recall a single R1 based outdoor layout being discussed here in years. If anyone considers it they are almost instantly warned against it and to use the widest possible turns even if that means ending up with a great big circle and moving the garage a few feet.

OK I’m being facetious but my point is valid. Small layouts are actively discouraged here in the US. This has been confirmed in the big ticket new items being offered for sale of late which require ever larger diameter requirements. The intent of the warning is well meaning, but the effect IMO has been to effectively discourage participation based on the on-line presentment that unless you have a 1/4 acre to begin with and a large trust fund fto buy all those shiny 3 foot long engines, LS is really not an option for most space strapped people.

Another factor is that there is still a very strong following of small narrow gauge feldbahn and tramway railroad modelling on the continent and in Britain, this means there is still a strong demand for the small 2 axle stuff that’s fallen out of favor here, look at whats been the big sellers here, they are all BIG, big steamers, big dismals, big cars, and looooong passenger cars, by contrast the smaller stuff from LGB, Piko and HLW barely clicks on the radar anymore.

I wish there was some way to shake people out of this funk, but even at shows I see people looking at my layout, but still being enamored with and wanting the big stuff like the yard long K and a rake of yard long Accu coaches. Its a completely different mindset.

#40

I agree with Vic…

Small layouts are much easier to “sell” to a family whereby the yard is therefore not dedicated to one person’s interest – there are exceptions, yes.

The fun of building the layout is THE **“stimulate yourself”**message to replace the “being stimulated” cultural scripting.

CONCLUSION:
Showing people reflecting on the decisions to be made, the satisfaction in making them, and the construction outcome, is the message needed – plus others giving kudos for the outcome!

The “stimulate me!” culture is very encompassing and the products to do so are ever present.
The model train hobby is not one of those products and needs to be marked as a self-satisfaction and self-stimulation hobby.

Your opinion?