Large Scale Central

3-truck Shay and issues

Stan,
I am not trashing either DCC or the Bachmann DCC sound decoders and I resent the inference that I am.
In fact I cannot comment on either the loco or the DCC sound decoder as I have yet to see one, let alone test one.

What concerns me is the way Bachmann is promoting their DCC sound decoders.
I will say it again.
Nowhere in Bachmann advertising on page # 11 of the Feb 2007 GR does it say the DCC sound decoder fitted to the LS Shay is a cut down version of the proper Tsunami.
Where does it say the DCC sound decoder fitted to the LS 3 truk Shay is part of the Tsunami “family”?
It says it is a Tsunami.
Period.
The wording on the Bachmann ad on page #11 would, I believe, lead any reasonable reader to expect they will be getting a proper Tsunami DCC sound system fitted to the LS Shay.
Neither does it explain that the sound, when operating on DC, is not exactly the same as it is with DCC.
To avoid any possible misinterprtation by consumers the ad should also state that, whilst some of the sound will work in DC mode, the operator will not have access to any of the functions other than the chuff.

I can only stress that I have no axe to grind with DCC, or any other technology for that matter.

As manufacturer I surely do have a responsibility.
To tell the truth myself and make sure all LS manufacturers do not, either deliberately, or accidentally by omission, use misleading advertising.

Gentlemen,

Did I miss it or wasn’t it answered? What is the current capacity of this sound decoder???

If Soundtraxx makes 4 and 8 amp units - or is planning on doing so - what is in the Bachmann Shay??

Curmudgeon said:
A little more. The "documentation" states that while the maximum track voltage for the decoder is 27V, a number that is being tested this weekend to confirm, the maximum TRACK voltage is 21V. Tell that to the Bridgeworks users, eh?

And I have been corrected.
“Undertow” for the back-emf should be “backwash”.


Dave,

According to the NMRA-DCC Standard the LS decoders have to handle 27V. I don’t remember if that is rock-solid clamped 27V. But there are some DCC systems on the market which add a little extra at times - voltage regulation not the strong suit - which can lead to smoke effects in “strictly electric” engines equipped with certain decoders.

Marc Bergmueller said:
Greg Elmassian said:
Thanks Dave!

Maybe could be the precursor of the production Tsunami 4 amp unit. You should be able to do 4 amps w/o heat sinks if they are dissipating heat through the board’s copper, at least for a while.

My understanding is that they are a special OEM run for Bachmann.

Regards, Greg


I can’t see dissipating 4 amps on the copper board, just gut the thing and RCS it. Why is it that everything(not just Bachman) needs some sort of band aid to work reliably? Its like were buying stuff out of an infermary, patched up to get it out the door.

Marc,

I am a very lucky guy, all the LGB engines I have are old enough to come without any of that c-r-a-p which needs to be removed prior to installing a decent decoder.

Tony

I apologize if my message was overly strong but I do believe your first post and your follow up post are both wrong.

You are a manufacturer of a technology that competes with the product that is contained in the Bachmann locomotive. Therefore I believe you should be rather careful about what you say in public about a competing product.

The ad says Tsunami sound technology and then goes on to list a set of features, all of which are included in the product.

Ok Let me try to say this a different way.

Soundtraxx has a product called Sierra that while excellent (I have more then a few), I think we can agree near the end of its life.

I think it is reasonable to assume that in time Soundtraxx will upgrade the product. When they do I think it is also likely they will base it on the same Tsunami technology they have spent so long in developing. This does not mean that the Sierra will have a DCC motor drive but I suspect the sound files and the mixing technology will be identical. Therefore Soundtraxx would be well in its right to use the Tsunami brand name in describing its new Sierra product. Perhaps we will see Sierra with Tsunami technology.

What defines Tsunami, or Intel Inside, DCC Compatible, or any other marketing term?

Do you know what features define Tsunami? Which ones should a user expect which are not in the Bachmann Sound on Board products? Heck there are already at least 3 if not 4 different product lines all of which use the Tsunami term. The common thread in all the products is the sound technology including the sound files and the way it is mixed. To me that is what defines Tsunami and not wether or not a CV is there or not there in one or another product.

Bachmann is well within its rights to call its DCC Sound on Board product Tsunami. And Soundtraxx has the right to include additional or different features in its products.

Stan Ames

Stan, What about those of us who use both types of control? Are we to remain ignorant of the problems until it is our turn in line to return broken items for repair+shipping? I’ve been there with my Connie. Or spend the extra money to get sound and find out its not quite a full featured decoder? To me, A steam engine should have a syncd chuff and if the board can’t link up to Bachmans own chuff switch then I won’t be happy. So what you are saying is be happy with the sound files and cause thats all that is important? You said "Bachmann is well within its rights to call its DCC Sound on Board product Tsunami. And Soundtraxx has the right to include additional or different features in its products. " And I say I have the right to know about it!

Stan Ames said:
Tony

I apologize if my message was overly strong but I do believe your first post and your follow up post are both wrong.


No they are not.

Stan Ames said:
You are a manufacturer of a technology that competes with the product that is contained in the Bachmann locomotive. Therefore I believe you should be rather careful about what you say in public about a competing product.
No I am not. I don't make a competing technology. I only make battery R/C. I do not make on board track powered controllers. I do not make sound either.
Stan Ames said:
The ad says Tsunami sound technology and then goes on to list a set of features, all of which are included in the product.

Ok Let me try to say this a different way.

Soundtraxx has a product called Sierra that while excellent (I have more then a few), I think we can agree near the end of its life.


I disagree. Sierra has by no means reached the end of its lifespan if consumers are still clamouring for the product.
Just because the manufacturer wants to “upgrade” what they do doesn’t mean the upgrade is what the consumer really wants.
RCS would not still be in business if it were not for consumers who are quite happy with the Elsema R/F technology, the basic design of which first came out in 1974. It works, the consumers like it and I have no intention of changing just so I can ram some new gee whizz technology down the throat of the consumer.
Remember also that India, for example, is still making cars using long out of date tooling they bought secondhand many years ago.

Stan Ames said:
I think it is reasonable to assume that in time Soundtraxx will upgrade the product. When they do I think it is also likely they will base it on the same Tsunami technology they have spent so long in developing. This does not mean that the Sierra will have a DCC motor drive but I suspect the sound files and the mixing technology will be identical. Therefore Soundtraxx would be well in its right to use the Tsunami brand name in describing its new Sierra product. Perhaps we will see Sierra with Tsunami technology.

What defines Tsunami, or Intel Inside, DCC Compatible, or any other marketing term?


I don’t know. Perhps you should tell me as the Bachmann does not say Tsunami technology inside. It just says it is Tsunami.

Stan Ames said:
Do you know what features define Tsunami? Which ones should a user expect which are not in the Bachmann Sound on Board products? Heck there are already at least 3 if not 4 different product lines all of which use the Tsunami term. The common thread in all the products is the sound technology including the sound files and the way it is mixed. To me that is what defines Tsunami and not wether or not a CV is there or not there in one or another product.

Bachmann is well within its rights to call its DCC Sound on Board product Tsunami. And Soundtraxx has the right to include additional or different features in its products.

Stan Ames


Soundtraxx packaging uses the word “Tsunami” as a noun. Just like they do with Soundtraxx “Sierra”. It does not say Sierra inside. The consumer believes it is the name of the hardware product.
Correct me if I am wrong, but, whilst Soundtraxx have 3 or 4 product lines all under the Tsunami banner, as I understand it, they all have exactly the same technology. They are not cut down versions.
That is what I believe the LS consumer is expecting.
I could live with the advertising if Bachmann said “based on” or “contains a limited version” of Tsunami technology. That way at least the consumer is forwarned that it is not exactly the same as what they expect and get from Soundtraxx.

BTW. Would you care to address my comments regarding the DCC sound decoder when it is operating on regular straight DC?

Quote:
Stan, What about those of us who use both types of control? Are we to remain ignorant of the problems until it is our turn in line to return broken items for repair+shipping? I’ve been there with my Connie. Or spend the extra money to get sound and find out its not quite a full featured decoder? To me, A steam engine should have a syncd chuff and if the board can’t link up to Bachmans own chuff switch then I won’t be happy. So what you are saying is be happy with the sound files and cause thats all that is important? You said "Bachmann is well within its rights to call its DCC Sound on Board product Tsunami. And Soundtraxx has the right to include additional or different features in its products. " And I say I have the right to know about it!

Of course you do. A professional discussion about the features of a product is healthy. In fact the original post by TOC is an excellent post that describes a potential problem and how to fix it. Users of DC units should pay especial attention to his suggested fix. The Bachmann Sound on Board decoder is indeed a high end full featured decoder but its features may or may not be the features that are important to you as an individual. What matters in a product is what features it has or does not have and discussions on how well each of these features work is very healthy. Posts implying deception advertising from a competing manufacturer are sad and outside the bounds of good network etiquette. A real problem here is the lack of proper documentation online that is readily available for all to read before purchase. Bachmann is not alone with this problem and hopefully they will hear and upload all the manuals to their site. The documents that come with all Bachmann Sound on Board products are actually quite good but alas are not available until after you have purchased the product. Lets concentrate on what features the product has and does not have. For example voltage. ALL Tsumani decoders that I am aware of test for a maximum voltage. If the voltage is higher then this value the decoder shuts down the motor drive and blinks the headlight. The decoder can survive a higher voltage but the motor will not operate. I believe that the maximum voltage for the entire product line is slightly above 21 volts as measured in the decoder. For the smaller scales this max operating voltage is excellent. In my opinion I would prefer to see a higher voltage say 25 volts for shutoff in large scale. Normally a DC or DCC user will not see this but if you run you shay at full speed on a typical 24 volt power pack it will stop when at the decoder the voltage is more then a little over 21 volts. Unfortunately Soundtraxx like many manufacturers has built Large Scale products that are simply high amperage small scale products. The reason this is done is because this is the least expensive way to do it. The better Large Scale products are built with the understanding that some items need to be changed to work in our environment. Hopefully the experience with the Shay will help them out when they eventually come out with their own branded Large Scale product. Another discussion is Chuff. About 1/2 of my locomotives use a cam and the other 1/2 use auto chuff. Auto Chuff can and does work quite well when done correctly. In fact on some locomotives it works much better than a cam because at slow speed you need 4 chuffs per revolution while at faster speeds 2 chuffs per revolution in my opinion sound better. There are two issues we have found with the 3 truck shay. The first is that the chuff rate as shipped is way way to slow. Raising this value has excellent results. The second is that the Back Emf is not strong enough to keep the auto chuf in synch under high loads and this is especially noticeable in DC mode. Raising the cuff rate helps a great deal here as well but does not solve the problem completely. The HO Sound on Board locomotive I have also use auto chuff but this is configured better and works well on DC and DCC out of the box. Stan Ames

Currently I use DC. If I do upgrade from that I doubt if it will be DCC but most likely to R/C with Batteries. As I see it right now, if they do not have chuff sync from a cam or some type of mechanism the Tsunami is a non starter…I’ll stick with my Phoenix.

I avoid ALL of the “Crap”, by stripping out all the wiring and going to a simple r/c battery instalation, without NOISE. I use my imagination and the sounds I imagine are “The real thing”. I have been around real steam engines and no electronic sound box can really duplicate the real thing.

If I was into geared locos; I’d buy the three truck Shay without any “Crap” and then strip the thing completely. I’d then send it to Dave Goodson and ask him to do his instalation without sound. This way my days would be trouble free and devoted to “Operation” and not to trouble shooting.

There you go Dave…no charge !!!

Fred: I did exactly what you said. I got the PLAIN 3 truck unit and stripped out all the existing circuit boards and installed a battery and R/C system

Warren: In addition I will be adding a Phoenix when it arrives. I also like the chuff in sync with the pistons and will probably program for ‘chuff averaging’ just in case it misses a beat now and then.
Nick Jr

Stan, there is only ONE version of Tsunami, in terms of features, hardware, etc. Yes, you can get ones with different sounds, but the FEATURE content is the same. I cannot agree with this premise of your argument.

Thus, calling another decoder a Tsunami, (not a member of the Tsunami family, not built with Tsunami technology) implies it has the SAME features. It not like calling this decoder a Chevy… It’s like calling this decoder a specific model with specific options. This decoder just is not the same as the Tsunami, it ain’t the same thing.

A new decoder that has different power characteristics, different programming characteristics, a vastly reduced command set, and lacks an important feature, a chuff input; is not rightly called a TSUNAMI.

I’ve been waiting for these decoders in LS for several years. I want one. But I don’t want whatever decoder is in this Bachmann, and it’s not worth $100 to me.

If I was in DC, then I’d buy a real Tsunami (HO size) which has a street price of $80 (20 bucks less), put a resistor across the motor leads, program it up for DC operation, and hook up the chuff wire, and I’d have a great sound decoder.

If I was in DC, and bought the shay with the decoder in it, I think I would be vastly disappointed, because I was given the EXPECTATION that the decoder had ALL of the features of the Tsunami built by SoundTraxx. So, when I went to program it to suit me, I would find it is not capable of these other things that I expected because it was advertised as a Tsunami. I’d also be mad when I could not find the chuff input.

Yes, I may be an exception, but I smelled something fishy, resisted buying it, and now have saved myself these aggravations; but what of the general LS public? It’s sort of a brotherhood here, and we need to watch out for each other. What about all the people who did not “pick apart” the details of this situation, or blithly believed what was in print.

I understand how excited SoundTraxx and Bachmann are to sell product, that’s their goal, but it’s been misleading advertising in my opinion, sketchy documentation, poor customer support, and personally, disappointing.

The only silver lining is … (Hmm… have rewritten this line several times, I find no silver lining, it’s delayed the real LS Tsunami, it lacks features I desire, it’s further confused the community… aw rats… I’ll try to find a silver lining later!)

Regards, Greg

I am a relative neophyte when it comes to voltage/amperage, emf emmissions, etc… (I will leave that to you guys!) but I do know that, if I am going to buy something, that I want it work and work correctly! This new DCC system seems to be being promoted by Bachmann. I question the decision that three (or is it four?) of the different Shay models only come with this DCC feature! If I run DC then I will have to accept the fact that I can’t access all of the features! This is definitely something that I would like to know before I make a purchase of one!
I’m going to stay away from the whole “Tsunami: Is it or isn’t it?” debate as I really don’t know enough about the differences to make an informed choice but I have heard information from Bachmann that tells me that they are working in partnership with Soundtraxx to incorporate Tsunami (with the little copyright logo) technology. What they don’t say is what I would need to do if there is a problem! TOC has come up with a solution to a problem that has been found but what about if it has already occurred? What then? I also have a BIG problem with two different companies each telling the customer that they will need to talk to the other company in order to get the problem corrected!!! (That one is inexcusable!)
Aparently, there is not only a design problem issue but also a quality control issue as well! When I hear of mounting holes not lining up, the NMRA polarity reversing switch not being able to be used and troubles with the entire unit shutting down when too much voltage (which shouldn’t be!) is used as well as a bowed board and wires not properly soldered(!) I get nervous. It doesn’t help when I hear that I will need to get a CV (what the heck is a “CV”?) unit in order to change some settings that should have been done at the factory!
I’m a simple kind of guy. I just want something that I am familiar with that works! I like the ease and convenience of r/c battery and I like Soundtraxx’s Sierra unit! While I would be very happy to see an improved Sierra where it utilizes some of this new Tsunami research, if I have to accept something that doesn’t do as much (as an interim) I will stockpile Sierras so that I can continue to use what I am comfortable with!
Bottom line: It seems to me that this thing was rushed into production without the proper “breaking in” period that new technologies usually require. A number of items have been brought up that haven’t been sufficiently answered to my satisfaction. I will purchase a new Shay but it will be one of the ones without sound! It’s what I’m comfortable with and what I will be willing to spend my $$$ on.

I am truly amazed at the shouting down, accusations, and finger pointing around a project that has every appearance of being a last minute, half baked slap together of an untested product, with no available support from the manufacturer, even to answering a basic question like “What is it, and how does it work?” without third parties getting their knickers in a twist.

I guess what surprises me most, though, is however angry it makes Stan, that most folks are jumping to the conclusion that the device found in the new Bachmann Shay is a Tsunami. Let’s explore why folks are making what some apparently think is an unreasonable leap of logic. To start with, Soundtraxx has had what a Tsunami is for some time on their website… if you’d like to read about all the functions and special effects here’s the link:

http://www.soundtraxx.com/products/dcc/tsunamifeatures.htm .

The trouble started when there were some magazine ads a few weeks before the Chicago I-Hobby show that mentioned the new gear before Bachmann had actually announced what they were doing. After extensive searching on the Bachmann board, it seems that the “Bach Man” answered every reference to these ads with the fact that the official announcement was forthcoming, and that as soon as he could post something, that he would do so, neither confirming or denying the reports that “Tsunami” or “Tsunami Technology” was to be used in the new locomotives. When the announcement finally appeared, it said the following:


"Author: the Bach-man (—.client.stsn.net)
Date: 10-19-06 23:45
Scale: General

Dear All,
Here are the sound announcements from the I Hobby Show. Before I list the specific models, here are the features:
*16-bit sound processor
*Several versions, each containing a unique suite of sounds, including whistles, bells, chuffs, and much more
*Complete DCC functions
*Automatic dual mode operation foe use on both DC and DCC layouts
*Short, extended, and advanced consisting addressing modes
*Paged, register, direct, and operations-mode programming
*Extensive range of CVs

Now, let me list the functions of the Tsunami decoder:

  1. Bell
  2. Long whistle blast
  3. Short whistle blast
  4. Blowdown
  5. Generator startup
  6. Water into tender
  7. Coal into tender
  8. On/off"

The rest of the posting went to detail which locomotives, in each scale (HO, On30, Large) would be offered with the new device pre-installed on them, among these were the first of the Three truck Shays. (for those of you who might be tempted to suggest I’m misrepresenting something here, this is the link: http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/read.php?f=1&i=171136&t=171136 )

Notice that in the announcement above, it says “Now let me list the functions of the Tsunami decoder.” It goes on to list eight functions.

Here’s how Soundtraxx defines a Tsunami:


"Tsu ·na ·mi (tsoo-nä´-mç) n. A huge wave of sound caused by SoundTraxx’s newest and slightly unpronounceable product!

The Tsunami sound system is SoundTraxx’s new high-performance, onboard locomotive sound system. Like the DSD-150 it replaces, Tsunami integrates a full-featured sound system, four Hyperlight lighting effects, a motor controller and a DCC decoder into a single, integrated package and is compatible with the NMRA DCC standards and Recommended Practices. Unlike the DSD-150, the Tsunami sound system can also be used on ‘Analog’ layouts and controlled with a conventional power pack, though it really shines on DCC controlled layouts.

At Tsunami’s core is a true 16-bit Digital Signal Processor, or DSP, capable of executing over 120 million instructions per second. With this new level of performance, SoundTraxx was able to give Tsunami 14 functions, over 22 individual sounds, and 4 special effects including the ability to alter the exhaust sound automatically in response to changes in the engine load. The motor controller received numerous enhancements as well, including the use of high frequency PWM and load compensation. To keep the size down, only components available in highly miniaturized packages were selected for use in the Tsunami resulting in a form factor that measures almost 30% shorter and 50% thinner than the DSD-150.


(see: http://www.soundtraxx.com/products/dcc/tsunamidecoders.htm for source.)

Even if the length of this post hasn’t put you to sleep yet, you’ll see quickly by comparing the two above that they’re not the same… but BOTH ARE BEING CALLED “TSUNAMI.”

Imagine opening a bottle of Budweiser only to find it full of filtered water intended for the hurricane Katrina disaster area. On complaining to your retailer, you’re told that your beverage was “made with Anheuser Busch Technology” and that you should have been more careful in your selection of a beverage. And then you point out that you were told it was Budweiser when you bought it … and everyone gets angry with you for not paying better attention.

Whether it’s watered down beer, or watered down DCC technology, this isn’t going to be good for anyone. Just as the folks at Budweiser wouldn’t want their beer being confused with filtered water, the folks at Soundtraxx ought to be horrified that whatever this thing in the Shay is, that it’s being confused and described publicly as a Tsunami. The problem is further compounded by the installation issues, and an apparent lack of testing resulting in overvoltage problems, physical mounting problems, wire strain relief, and the lack of any available support, particularly for non DCC users who, without some research won’t know that while this sound system is supposed to be a great leap forward in technology, that without purchasing hundreds of dollars worth of equipment that something as simple as changing the volume is impossible!

There are knowledgable people here who have tried to investigate exactly what this device is, what it does, how to make it work, and how to correct its inherent problems, many of which have been detailed in this thread. They have done so in the face of a wall of “no comment” from the manufacturers of the locomotive, and the manufacturer of the decoder/sound unit. They have reported their findings, and what remedies they have been able to discover thus far in the public domain, and without charge, at their own expense, and for the betterment of the hobby.

Some folks, even on this thread have immediately shouted “FOUL” as loudly as they can. If I understand correctly, they imply that there is nothing wrong with the system, and it works exactly as it was designed to. Any misunderstanding on the part of the consumer is entirely their own fault, and they should have been better educated before they made their selection, even if, previously, they had nothing to do with anything related to DCC. This smacks of a hidden “agenda” of some kind, and before ANY such people start suggesting a conflict of interest on the part of the folks who are trying to help, they might seriously consider if they’d stand up to their own scrutiny. To my knowledge, none of the folks who have posted any solutions here have families suported by the manufacture, sale, or distribution of any DCC products, nor have they been part of any national organization or standards forming committes to promote or standardize its use in the hobby.

While there is a following for DCC in large scale, the majority of us use something else to power and control our trains, and as for me I plan to continue with what I have. I’m shocked that Sierra, which works well with what many of us use, either track or battery power, is being officially declared DEAD here … and am tempted to ask Soundtraxx myself how much longer before the line is to be discontinued, as I have some engines that still need to be equipped with a sound system that has chuff contacts, a volume control, and is field programmable without installing an entirely new and different power and control system. If the new device were really a Tsunami, and not some watered down knockoff with the Tsunami name plastered on it, I might be tempted… but in the face of being told that filtered water is beer, and that I have no right to question anything, and that everything I’ve spent years building is now so old and outdated as to be “Dead” technology, and that to have any hope of a model railroad in the future I need to subscribe to something new, expensive, and altogether different from what I’ve learned, I’m tempted to dig in my feet just a bit and resist “Progress.”

Trying to wade through all of this to find the answers I need. Is the 3 truck Bachmann Shay available with straight DC power and no sound, so we can buy the Shay, put radio control and batteries in it, and then add the sound system of our choice. Are the majority going to be sold in a vanilla version? Or do we have to buy them with some type of sauce and nuts on them that has to be scraped off to get to the ice cream. I hope they don’t price themselves out of the majority of the market by creating a particular sundae with the vanilla product hidden underneath a whole bunch of stuff that needs to be disgarded.

Matthew,

Excellent points!

Looks like every time one mentions the “warts” of a new product the chances are good that someone, who wasn’t on the forum before, signs up to question what has been posted by someone who really looked at the stuff.
Of course that isn’t an exclusive with a Bachmann product, can happen with any product as soon as you point out the 2 plus 2 only add to 3 or, as in this case, supposedly 5.

Since I’ve seen a few things in different scales that have come with a factory sound capable of DCC and DC operation, I would have been surprised if the DC sound functions would have matched the DCC variety. But the novice or newcomer to LS will certainly not “catch on” and be disappointed.

The next question is how much extra will one need to buy in order to get the max out of the DC or the DCC version? Since this is an OEM product from Soundtraxx, will there be a “happy merry go round” to get the tech information - more or less the same routine as with Massoth and LGB?

What’s the solution?

Buy without all the jazz, toss out the innards, install the equipment of your choice. Why get annoyed with stuff that is a PITA if there are alternatives in both battery, DC and DCC operation? Or is the warranty voided if one does that?? :wink: :smiley:

Ric,

Yes… mostly. Make sure the one you’re ordering has a “4” in the middle of the number, not a 6, as in 82498 (no decoder) vs. 82698 (DCC).

If you want one WITHOUT DCC, you have your choice of Undec Black, Undec Black with Red/White trim, Meadow River, and Oregon Lumber. Of those, the Meadow River and the Red/White/Black ones have a steel cab, and the other two have wood panelled cabs.

The DCC equipped ones are the the undec with red/white, the Little River, and the Westside Lumber. These all have steel cabs.

So if you want “vanilla, sans scraping” as long as you don’t want Little River or Westside, you’re in luck.

That help?

Matthew (OV)

Yes, available without, unless you want a Westside, or Little River.

Best bet, track power, aftermarket sound.
Most battery r/c, aftermarket sound.
DCC aficionado? Well…

I really wish ALL the locomotive manufacturers would just make locomotives…plain vanilla no frills quality running locomotives and let us decide what we want in it for control, sound and other frills. I think we all as a whole would be a WHOLE lot happier and I think it would be a whole lot better for both the loco manufacturer and the aftermarket providers.

Jeez, what a bunch of shortsighted manufacturers we have. :frowning:

Hear! Hear!

And where is it written that they all have to make their own line of track?
Or control systems?

Find your niche, and do one thing well.