Large Scale Central

Track metal compatibility

Track and Trestles
#21

Hi Ted

i will be ordering 4 of the frog inserts as I only have 4 #6 switches. Today I did some work on one switch as a test bed for all four of them. I milled .030 off the inside lower web of both guard rails and milled each end at 10degrees to make a nice ramp on each end. I was going to mention exactly what you stated, the gauge of the swing rails is too narrow in places. I removed both and did more sanding of the swing rail aces in the needed areas and worked on the ends so now the wheelsno longer ride up on the rails. I will post pictures later.

#22

I’m sure it is a typo, where you said “sanding of the swing rail aces”… what did you mean to put there? (also called point rails I think)

Glad you are making improvements, seems that almost everything Aristo made needed some tweaking.

Greg

#23

Yes, sorry, my terminology is wrong and I meant the backs of the point rails where they close against the fixed rail. I looked at another switch quickly and it’s much worse as far as the width of the point rails. The guy I bought all the SS track and switches from seemed he was a little aggravated with the whole outdoor railroad he had and now I can understand why. He must have had a ton of derailments with these switches.

i wanted to add pictures but can’t figure out how. Don’t see an add photos icon or any like that.

#24

Pictures I hope!

#25

More

#26

How well is your rolling stock’s wheel gauge …

Greg what should his wheels be set @… couldn’t help to check these …

#27

No arguments with any of the information on the #6’s provided, but my experience has been a lot different.

I put down 5 Aristo #6’s on my main line possibly 10 years ago or more. I have had no real issues with 4 of the 5. One of them has a little problem with picking points when taking the diverging route, but the straight mainline route is fine. I don’t see any of the frog wear noted. I do not do roundy-round, so a mainline frog may see traffic of 4-6 cars 50-75 times per year. I’m sure the roundy-round guys put much more wear on theirs.

I’ve also not noticed any issue with frog depth. I don’t run any LGB equipment. All Bachmann and Accucraft Fn3 equipment now. Had a bunch of Bachmann and Aristo 1:22-29 stuff when I first started. I set my adjustable wheels to the G1MRA back to back. I might have the issue, but I don’t notice it and get no problems from it.

Aristo Wide (10Ft) switches, not so much. They need a lot of help!

#28

Another Aristo #6 problem to look out for!

The short stub end rail portion beyond the frog of this turnout is very flexible. This can result in the stub railheads not being level with the frog railheads. I had experienced a broken piece off the pilot of a USA Trains F3 because it struck the raised stub rails. A remedy can be had. See the following illustrations:

-Ted Doskaris

#29

Interesting the varied experiences.

Funny, I have never seen a well used #6 that did not have that weird looking wear on the frog.

Also, I think Jon, if you look very closely at your rolling stock as it goes through the frog, you will see the wheel drop down lower than the rail head. Even Aristo made these inserts for their #6.

I did not experience derailments for this issue, but noticed the train made a lot more noise through the switch, when I got close I could see the issue of wheels dropping into the frog.

A suggestion of where the 2 stub rails approach the frog, these rails can move a bit and short to the frog, a trimmed piece of a credit card will keep this from happening.

Greg

#30

Greg Elmassian said:

I’m sure it is a typo, where you said “sanding of the swing rail aces”… what did you mean to put there? (also called point rails I think)

Yankee terminology …

#31

Greg Elmassian said:

Snip" A suggestion of where the 2 stub rails approach the frog, these rails can move a bit and short to the frog, a trimmed piece of a credit card will keep this from happening." Snip

Greg

Agreed; It can be seen looking at the last picture which included the F3 loco pilot, the turnout installed in the layout is fitted with little black plastic insulators. I glued in thin strips of ABS plastic and then cut off the surrounding excess.

-Ted D

#32

I worked on the other three #6 aristo switches yesterday. I looked at my 1615 LGB switches and noticed how the back of the point rails are milled to tuck under the rail they’re closing against so I put each rail in my mill and milled the side just like the LGB switches. All I can say is what a difference in the clearance now and no more is my wheel set riding up on the rails where the point close. All three switches did the same thing and all got the same treatment. I also milled the bottoms of the guard rails to tighten up the distance so the wheel flanges no longer strike the poin of the frog. Now all my aristo switches are ready to go down without issue other 5han ordering and installing the frog bottoms.

#33

Just curious how about Sunset Valley SS #6 switches? No plan for track power.

#34

ok I have a dumb question: when a wheel goes through the frog, is it supposed to ride on the rail as normal or is it supposed to ride on the flange and lift the wheel up off the rail head to "point " it in the proper direction. I am just missing exactly how it is supposed to work. My layout has Piko 10’ LGB 10 and 15’ USA #6 an one Aristo 10’ switches,

#35

Pete Lassen said:

ok I have a dumb question: when a wheel goes through the frog, is it supposed to ride on the rail as normal or is it supposed to ride on the flange and lift the wheel up off the rail head to "point " it in the proper direction. I am just missing exactly how it is supposed to work. My layout has Piko 10’ LGB 10 and 15’ USA #6 an one Aristo 10’ switches,

There are no dumb questions. And to answer your question requires detailed knowledge of which wheel type and which frog.

The prototypical wheel will ride on the rail and, as it crosses the gap at the frog, the wheel will smootly transition to the point of the frog as it runs off the point rail in to the gap. This requires careful sizing of the wheel tread (wide enough) and the frog gap (narrow enough.)

On many “g scale” switches, the wheel flanges are huge and the frog gap is wide. Consequently the vendor often puts a ‘filler’ in the gap so the wheel rides on the filler rather than dropping down into the gap. It does nothing to “point it in the proper direction” as you suggest. The check rail alongside the outer rail stops the wheels from taking the wrong side of the frog.

There was a similar discussion about wheel/rail standards on GSC:
https://www.gscalecentral.net/threads/laying-track-to-avoid-derailments.314443/#post-583880

where I pointed out that it is difficult to mix “scale” wheels (e.g. accucraft) with non-scale track (e.g. Piko or LGB) and vice versa.

#36

Pete Lassen said:

ok I have a dumb question: when a wheel goes through the frog, is it supposed to ride on the rail as normal or is it supposed to ride on the flange and lift the wheel up off the rail head to "point " it in the proper direction. I am just missing exactly how it is supposed to work. My layout has Piko 10’ LGB 10 and 15’ USA #6 an one Aristo 10’ switches,

Just for fun, on the prototype it is a 3-way mix of each & blended, https://www.voestalpine.com/nortrak/en/products/Frogs-Partial-Flange-Bearing-Frogs/

The partial flange bearing frog, is a hybrid of a conventional self-guarded frog and a pure flange bearing frog. Depending upon wear profile, wheels traverse the frog in either tread or flange bearing mode. The distribution of wheel loading yields significant improvement in frog life.

And then there’s the split personality mixed-breed, https://www.voestalpine.com/nortrak/en/products/Frogs-Jump-Frogs/

Frogs - Jump Frogs

The Jump Frog is ideal for applications with low tonnage and low speed on the diverging route. Design incorporates a continuous running rail on the through route and flange bearing ramps on the diverging route.

#37

10’ LGB 10 and 15’ USA #6

Pete, I assume you are referring to the curve diameter. A #6 switch has a curve and a straight portion through the frog so it isn’t a direct replacement for a section of curved track. Last time I calculated it was about 9 1/2 ft radius, 19 ft diameter.

on the prototype it is a 3-way mix

Forrest, yes, and there are many other frogs on that same website. However, our models are a mix of deep and shallow flanges, and a mix of wheel back-to-back dimensions. The only way I found to cope, when I made my own track, was to make the check rail gap tight and the frog-point rail gap wide so that scale wheels and toy wheels would both go through the right path. Unfortunately the wheels then fell into the wide gap at the frog which made them bump a lot, so some kind of filler is almost mandatory.

#38

Pete Thornton said: The only way I found to cope, when I made my own track, was to make the check rail gap tight and …

That brings to mind a time down at model RR club some years ago, there was turnout in the middle of some trackwork which was apparently the cause of some problems & there was much complaint about having to take aout other bits of track in order to replace it.

“No ya don’t, after looking at it with the NMRA gauge, just glue a shim from sheet styrene inside the guardrail here.”

They looked at me like I was speaking Neptunian (But then again, they were the same people who insisted a 2 degree angle and a 2 percent grade are the same thing …) then they finally came up with, “But if you do that the super glue will cause bumps which will derail the train.”

(too bad there doesn’t seem to be an eye roll emoticon) “You use this liquid cement from Plastruct that I’ve been using since the beginning of the 1980s.”

“That can’t glue to the plastic used on track.”

… Eventually I just quit trying to help them.

#39

In reference to a question asked earlier, LGB switches are design to be flange bearing, and this allows the traditional undergauge wheelsets and wide flangeways.

Aristo were apparently designed to be “normal” where the wheel tread is supported by the rails, but the throat of the #6 is too large, and the wing rail and guard rail flangeways are too wide.

On the wide radius switches, it can be made to work well with properly gauging the flangeways on the stock rails.

On the number #6, the cast frog is too difficult to fix, so fix the flangeways on the stock rails and put the shim in the frog to make it flange bearing.

USA Trains #6 are similar.

Greg