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  • Topic: MTH locos vs. LGB/PIKO/USA/Aristo?

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    • January 30, 2016 7:36 PM EST

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      Wendell Hanks said:

       

      From Jerry's excellent website:

      "He (Jerry Barnes) finds the sliding skates and power pickups on the wheels pickup the power from the rails very well and constant cleaning of the track is not needed, unless he has run a live steam engine!"

       

      In Jerry's excellent website, he references the electrical pickup qualities of his MTH locos not requiring "constant cleaning of the track is not needed."

      He may be on to a comparison that has not been done nor discussed prior: MTH's comparative advantage under track power vs. the other brand names.

      If there is a definitive difference, I am interested as the Palm Desert, Calif., Living Desert layout favors brands other than MTH only because of size.

       

      Your experience?

       

      It appears that Wendell was simply asking ?

       

       

       

      "He (Jerry Barnes) finds the sliding skates and power pickups on the wheels pickup the power from the rails very well and constant cleaning of the track is not needed, unless he has run a live steam engine!"

       

       

       

      I thought the experts preached remove the Skates and throw them in the trash Wendell? Pretty sure I read this twice before responding to Wendell's question.

       

    • January 30, 2016 7:38 PM EST

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      Edit for page 2 and trying to stay on topic

    • January 30, 2016 8:22 PM EST

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      Greg Elmassian said:

      Actually DCS is a carrier signal added to the "base" voltage, and it will work on either DC or AC.

      It's incorrect to say DCS is DC, DCS is an extra signal, that is on top of your base track power, whih can be AC or DC.

       

      The problem is that it is a small voltage compared to your "base" voltage, and it's easy to "lose" the signal through voltage drop or light bulbs or other loads on the track.

       

      DCC is a completely different animal... the power is square wave AC, whose frequency is modulated to provide the data.

       

      Did you read Wendells original TOPIC and post twice?

    • January 30, 2016 9:38 PM EST
      • Lewiston, NY
         
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      Some of my MTH G scale engines are over ten years old now and they all are still performing great. With redundant power pickup points, they handle my outside RR better than most or equal to any other brand on it. I also run Aristo, USA, LGB, K-line engines. I installed MTH's PS system in them all.

       

       

    • February 2, 2016 9:37 PM EST
      • Lewiston, NY
         
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      http://www.ncedcc.com/#!online-store/c1n1m/!/CP6-6-Zone-DCC-circuit-protector/p/38322163/category=10026299

      http://tonystrains.com/snubbers/

      http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/10166

       

       

       

       

       

       

    • February 3, 2016 3:17 AM EST

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      is there a point? reading the links, it says that you don't need snubbers.

      You can also find people selling the GW bridge.

       

      DCS is dying and being replaced by DCC by the manufacturer.

       

      Greg

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    • February 3, 2016 10:49 PM EST
      • Lewiston, NY
         
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      What???? do you know what compatibility is?

      Do U just make stuff up to make yourself sound better?

    • February 4, 2016 3:10 AM EST

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      Don't think of it in terms of MTH "replacing" DCS with DCC. Their new decoders are multi-protocol. It's really no different from some of the decoders being offered by ESU, Zimo, and others which are compatible with DCC, Motorola, and other command control protocols popular in Europe. When the world is becoming increasingly multi-lingual, it behooves one to pick up a book and learn a second language.

       

      Let's face it... more and more, it's just software. The decoders have enough computing power to analyze the signal being fed to them and determine which protocol to follow. (In the case of the MTH decoders, there's a physical switch to select between DCS and DCC control.) That can only be a good thing. Modelers have a much broader range of products to choose from, and manufacturers have a much broader audience to sell to. How many times in years past have we read on these forums comments to the tune of "I love MTH's stuff, but I run DCC and don't want to pay for their electronics only to have to gut them and add my own." (And it's not just large scalers saying that.) Now, that argument is moot. DCS users can buy MTH's stuff and run it with their older DCS stuff. DCC users can now simply buy an MTH loco, set it on the track, and be off and running. 

       

      I think if MTH has realized anything, it's that people like choice. It's one thing to be "brand loyal" because you want to. It's a completely different thing to be brand loyal because you have to. MTH wants to sell trains. The limitation of their locos to having full functionality only in the DCS environment proved to be limiting their sales. Like any company, they're always looking to upgrade their products. If you can increase your potential market by writing expanded compatibility into the coding for those upgrades, who wouldn't do that?

       

      Now, how do I convince them they need to get into 1:20.3?

       

      Later,

       

      K

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    • February 4, 2016 6:21 PM EST

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      I'm referring to the evolution of MTH trains from DCS to DCC. I believe the writing is on the wall.

      It's really shifting from a communication technique that is dicey and not suited to large layouts to a standard used by the majority of people using remote control in model trains, DCC is far and away the favorite.

       

      Sure the decoder supports both, but my opinion is that MTH is wise to add the support, and will find that their sales of their proprietary control system will slowly fade away.

       

      Kevin, I think getting MTH into 1:20.3 is as likely as you and I holding hands skipping under the mulberry trees, ha ha!

       

      Greg

      ____________________________________

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      ­Click HERE for Greg­'s web sit­e
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    • February 4, 2016 8:51 PM EST
      • Lewiston, NY
         
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      Well I guess with all your background and market research your opinion is worth something?

    • February 4, 2016 9:07 PM EST

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      Wendell Hanks said:

       

      From Jerry's excellent website:

      "He (Jerry Barnes) finds the sliding skates and power pickups on the wheels pickup the power from the rails very well and constant cleaning of the track is not needed, unless he has run a live steam engine!"

       

      In Jerry's excellent website, he references the electrical pickup qualities of his MTH locos not requiring "constant cleaning of the track is not needed."

      He may be on to a comparison that has not been done nor discussed prior: MTH's comparative advantage under track power vs. the other brand names.

      If there is a definitive difference, I am interested as the Palm Desert, Calif., Living Desert layout favors brands other than MTH only because of size.

       

      Your experience?

        

    • February 4, 2016 9:11 PM EST

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      Greg Elmassian said:

       

      Kevin, I think getting MTH into 1:20.3 is as likely as you and I holding hands skipping under the mulberry trees, ha ha!

       

      Greg

      That may be however mom used to make a bitchin mulberry pie from them trees I still deal with on my outdoor railroad.

    • February 4, 2016 10:21 PM EST
      • Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
         
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      Joe Paonessa said:

      Well I guess with all your background and market research your opinion is worth something?

      Joe, many of us think so.

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    • February 4, 2016 10:21 PM EST

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      So now I am not entitled to an opinion Joe?

      And yes, I have been doing market research.

       

      And it makes logical sense with all the difficulties with the DCS signal on large or complex layouts.

       

      Try coming back with facts, like an engineering analysis of the signals used. Or show posts that are greater in number than the posts about coping with DCS, snubbers, filters, etc.

       

      There's information out there to support what I say. Coming back with nothing, no facts no reasoning, just "DCS is great" is a weak argument.

       

      Worse is when you make personal comments about people, like you implied in your last post. I expect you will up the personal ante with this post.

       

      Greg

      This post was edited by Greg Greg Elmassian at February 4, 2016 10:24 PM EST
      ____________________________________

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    • February 5, 2016 1:34 AM EST

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      Greg Elmassian said:
      Sure the decoder supports both, but my opinion is that MTH is wise to add the support, and will find that their sales of their proprietary control system will slowly fade away.

      I don't see DCS declining. I don't see it expanding, either, but I think the strengths DCS offers compared to DCC will keep it going for those users who want it. Primarily, those strengths are price and DC-compatibility. The TIU is easily half or more as much as a quality DCC system. That right there is a pretty big factor for folks wanting to buy MTH locomotives. Also, you have pretty much full control of those functions in an "analog" DC environment. If you're running at a club display and want to blow the whistle and ring the bell whenever, you merely need to insert your TIU between the throttle and the track. While I can bring my DCC-equipped locomotive and run it on my club track, I can't control the sounds or lighting functions.

       

      One other thing to consider... MTH is pretty much the lone wolf in electric 1:32 trains. If you're a "scale purist," wanting only to run 1:32 trains on your railroad, and MTH is the only manufacturer supplying models, you're not sacrificing much of anything to stick to their proprietary control system. DCC-equipped Aristo and Bachmann locos may not run under DCS, but they're not 1:32, so you're not going to run them anyway.

       

      Later,

       

      K

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    • February 5, 2016 11:21 AM EST
      • Newton, KS
         
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      I think a lot of the MTH rolling stock is a size that 1/29 guys would find look fine with their freight trains.

    • February 5, 2016 2:17 PM EST

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      Kevin Strong said:
      Greg Elmassian said:
      Sure the decoder supports both, but my opinion is that MTH is wise to add the support, and will find that their sales of their proprietary control system will slowly fade away.

      I don't see DCS declining. I don't see it expanding, either, but I think the strengths DCS offers compared to DCC will keep it going for those users who want it. Primarily, those strengths are price and DC-compatibility.

      >>> kevin, can you explain how DCS has an advantage on DC compatibility? I don't see any advantage since all DCC decoders work on DC. If you use DCS on fixed DC, then it's still a fixed voltage on the rails and other DC locos will run full speed. Please explain.

      >>> also price? You can buy a full fledged NCE PowerPro system for $150 from muliple dealers, and add a 5 amp booster easily and cheaply. Please show me the price advantage?

       

      The TIU is easily half or more as much as a quality DCC system. That right there is a pretty big factor for folks wanting to buy MTH locomotives. Also, you have pretty much full control of those functions in an "analog" DC environment. If you're running at a club display and want to blow the whistle and ring the bell whenever, you merely need to insert your TIU between the throttle and the track.

      >>>> but you must be running constant voltage DC, so you CANNOT run other non DCS locos except at FULL SPEED... and you must have a DCS system to do this.

      While I can bring my DCC-equipped locomotive and run it on my club track, I can't control the sounds or lighting functions.

      >>>>>how is this different? You have to have a DCS system to control the functions on a DCS locomotive. In fact you can control the DCC QSI on a normal DC layout with nothing more than the reversing switch.

      >>>> in this case DCC wins over DCS..

       

      One other thing to consider... MTH is pretty much the lone wolf in electric 1:32 trains. If you're a "scale purist," wanting only to run 1:32 trains on your railroad, and MTH is the only manufacturer supplying models, you're not sacrificing much of anything to stick to their proprietary control system. DCC-equipped Aristo and Bachmann locos may not run under DCS, but they're not 1:32, so you're not going to run them anyway.

      >>> agreed, if you want 1:32 you need to consider MTH, but I was talking about DCS vs. DCC... since all new MTH supports DCC, why buy the DCS system? That is my point, DCS will just fade away, as people use DCC for their MTH equipment.

       

      >>> I think you just proved my point more, that there is a very good chance that the poorly performing DCS system will give way to DCC and I applaud MTH for wisely embracing DCC.

       

      Later,

       

      K

       

      ____________________________________

      Be sure­ to visit ­my site, l­ots of tec­hnical tip­s and modi­fications,­ and you c­an search ­for topics­ and key w­ords.


      ­Click HERE for Greg­'s web sit­e
      PLEASE NOT­E: Please do NOT use private messaging, i­f you have­ a questio­n, feel fr­ee to emai­l me priva­tely, u­se regular­ email onl­y: greg@el­massian.co­m

    • February 5, 2016 3:06 PM EST
      • Elizabeth, Pennsylvania
         
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      Ive never liked MTH. I'm an LGB, USAT, and Accurcraft man.

    • February 5, 2016 5:28 PM EST
      • Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
         
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      One other thing to consider... MTH is pretty much the lone wolf in electric 1:32 trains. If you're a "scale purist," wanting only to run 1:32 trains on your railroad, and MTH is the only manufacturer supplying models, you're not sacrificing much of anything to stick to their proprietary control system. DCC-equipped Aristo and Bachmann locos may not run under DCS, but they're not 1:32, so you're not going to run them anyway.

      Ah, Piko makes 1:32.

       

      And I can run my DCC locomotives on DC, I just can't control the sounds. But I can't control the sounds on my QSI board neither (not without some added RC gear) , and the same would be true with DCS. My TE won't control those types of sound functions.

      ____________________________________

      Shannon car Shops
      Home of the infamous leg lamp

      I.A.R.R.R. Member #12

      and King Butt Modeler

    • February 5, 2016 7:48 PM EST

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      Joe Paonessa

       

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      Not Respected

       

       

       

      I'm gonna tell you right now Joe when you invade my territory of "Not Respected" I tend to get upset as you ignored my no trespassing signs!

      I would like you to follow me to the gate at the end of the road onto "Respected" territory again.

       

       

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