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  • Topic: Aristocraft BNSF Dash 9 Motor Failure

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    • September 9, 2017 6:52 PM EDT
      • Carlsbad, CA
         
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      We have learned the hard way about split shafts in Z scale, where the motors not only cannot be bought, but the people that have them want (and get) $100 each for them.

      Pull the gears off with a puller (heat is NOT an option on a 5mm diameter motor!!

      Everything seems cool... then press the gears on, and the shaft recedes into the housing... split shaft motor, but no way to tell before.

      Apparently shaft is inserted into end housing, then gear pressed on, and then half shaft pressed into plastic "center"...

      My GUESS is these (Aristo) motors have a continuous single shaft.

      Greg

       

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    • September 11, 2017 7:35 PM EDT
      • E. Helena , Montana
         
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      Gary,
      I want to extend my sincere, "Thank You!" from all of us at Imagination Station Kids On Track for graciously donating the motors needed for repairs. I know a lot of kids will enjoy running this BNSF Dash 9 and our Pan Am Railways SD45 which both had front drive block motors with bent shafts. (front motors only) The Pan Am was not to bad but still had a front motor with a bent shaft which we will now replace also.
      You know what's interesting is that the good motors spin a little more free than the motors with bent shafts, even though the shafts aren't bent bad. Amazing how just a small amount of bend in the shaft causes so many issues. Wish we could save the motors since they still run so well. Oh well!
      This will fix all of our problem locomotives and once again have everything running, once Barry is finished.
      Oh, thanks for removing the plastic hex ends. I don't know how you amazingly did that?
      Thanks for everything Gary.
      Incidentally, you pack things professionally like I've never seen.
      With your packing, you could probably drop it from an airplane without an issue!
      Greg,
      I believe your correct in as the shaft goes all the way through the motor but I think we'll know more once Barry works on it.
      I sure won't try it myself. There are some things I just don't trust myself with.
      Thanks, Ken
    • September 11, 2017 8:33 PM EDT
      • Carlsbad, CA
         
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      What is really bizarre is I have never seen nor heard of a motor with a bent shaft in the prime mover motor blocks.

      Is it possible these locos were dropped? Had they ever been opened before?

       

      In any case, great you problem is solved and I've learned a new thing to look out for.

       

      Greg

      ____________________________________

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    • September 11, 2017 9:22 PM EDT
      • E. Helena , Montana
         
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      No, never opened. That part I am sure of, however, I am not sure if they were ever dropped in shipping. The boxes looked ok biut one thing they have in common is that they came together in the same shipment from Aristocraft directly.
    • September 13, 2017 5:11 PM EDT
      • YYC, CANADA
         
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      "...our Pan Am Railways SD45 which both had front drive block motors with bent shafts. (front motors only) The Pan Am was not to bad but still had a front motor with a bent shaft ."

       

      Interesting.  Maybe time to finally open our factory fresh/direct from AC units,  and chk this out .... or just bookmark this thread !  :)

      ____________________________________

      " G-Gauge may not RULE, but it  GROWS  on Ya !! "    djc'99

    • September 13, 2017 5:36 PM EDT
      • E. Helena , Montana
         
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      Which units do you have Doug?
      Ken
    • September 14, 2017 5:37 PM EDT
      • YYC, CANADA
         
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      Pan-Am !  

      When I do finally get around to opening and if finding the same problemo (as you found) I might just have an opinion of the factory in their waning moments for AC  ;)

      This post was edited by Doug Cannon at September 14, 2017 5:39 PM EDT
      ____________________________________

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    • September 15, 2017 12:28 AM EDT
      • E. Helena , Montana
         
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      Yea, let's hope they're ok. I haven't really had a huge amount of problems with these drives with these exceptions but as you may know, they like to be kept oiled and I drill grease holes in my gearboxes so I never have to take the drive/gearboxes apart again. I have gotten pretty good at working on this type of drive block but I am still trying to learn more and this post has helped a lot.
      Hope your locomotives are ok.
      Let me know if I can help!
      Ken
    • October 4, 2017 2:47 AM EDT
      • E. Helena , Montana
         
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      Gary, Forum Members,

      Our BNSF locomotive is now operational again thanks to Gary and his gracious donation of motors.

      We at Imagination Station Kids On Track and the kids and families who enjoy operating the trains would like to extend our thanks to Gary, largescalecentral.com, Barry's Big Trains and everyone else who contributed (including advise) to get this locomotive and our Pan Am Railways SD45 up and running again. I am sure the public will enjoy these locomotives for years to come. I apologize to everyone for not posting photos of the motors after Barry removed the old brass hex ends and reinstalled them on the motors Gary supplied but my smartphone seems to have a lot of problems posting photos here, every single time I attempt it.

      Gary, Members, 

      Here is a less than well done video that shows the locomotive in operation again.(below)

      We did have another couple videos with this locomotive in them and you can hear the difference before the failure and this video after the repair. These videos are on our channel also.

      Barry said that the motors were also arcing heavily and we're pretty burnt up in addition to the bent shafts. It's literally amazing they lasted as long as they did.

      Gary, I didn't mention your name on the You Tube video without your concent but if you would like it in the title, I'll be glad to Change it for you. Just let me know.

      Thanks everyone! Ken 

      https://youtu.be/CJtutP_5sC4

      Imagination Station Kids On Track Model Railroad And Train Safety Program, E. Helena, MT 

      This post was edited by Ken Mathews/Imagination Station Kids On Track at October 4, 2017 3:01 AM EDT
    • October 4, 2017 7:03 AM EDT
      • Easton , Massachusetts
         
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      Glad to hear it !

      This post was edited by Sean McGillicuddy at October 4, 2017 7:04 AM EDT
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    • October 6, 2017 7:11 PM EDT
      • E. Helena , Montana
         
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      Greg, Gary,
      Barry said that he found the original manufacturer of the Aristocraft SD45 and Dash 9 motors. As hard as this was to believe his research found that these motors are originally built and ordered from Mitsubishi Motor Company, electronics division. They are the exact same motor used in Bachmann units now and are available to this day but without the brass or plastic hex ends. Wether there is more windings on the Aristocraft than the Bachmann still remains to be seen (he is still checking) but they are from that manufacturer with the same voltage and amperage draw.
      Just thought you'd like to know what Barry said and what his research found out through motor code numbers and manufacturing id's.
      Thanks for the help!
      Ken
      This post was edited by Ken Mathews/Imagination Station Kids On Track at October 6, 2017 7:17 PM EDT
    • October 6, 2017 8:35 PM EDT
      • Carlsbad, CA
         
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      I think that the manufacturer is Matsushita or Mitsui not Mitsubishi. I have never seen small motors like that from Mitsubishi.

       

      But the motor that is pictured on page 1 is a different manufacturer, and the part number matched exactly. I gave all the links including the manufacturer.

       

      Over the years, Aristo did change suppliers, and even had a batch of counterfeit motors!

       

      Here's your picture of the LD5FN motor.... I can't find that part number from Mitsubishi, love to see a link.

       

      (not trying to be argumentative, but I even gave a link that showed that Aristo was a customer of the manufacturer for that part number motor... pretty darn conclusive)

       

      Rooster, what the heck are you talking about? If you are serious, please re-read my post where I give complete factual information on the motor and even who bought them.

       

      Greg

      This post was edited by Greg Elmassian at October 6, 2017 8:53 PM EDT
      ____________________________________

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    • October 6, 2017 8:45 PM EDT
      • Settle Down Boomer ,
         
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      Greg Elmassian said:

      I think that the manufacturer is Matsushita not Mitsubishi.

      Greg

      Factual quotes "only" please so we may help the enthusiast>

    • October 6, 2017 11:49 PM EDT
      • San Mateo, California
         
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      I believe Matsushita is the parent company of Panasonic and Japan Victor Company (JVC).

      If a motor is marked with an "M" like symbol,

      Mabuchi Electric Motors

      Then it would seem to be a Mabuchi Motor like the SD45 motor that shown on George Schreyer's web site.

      SD45 motor

      See Mabuchi Motor Designations and Their Meanings

       

      -Ted

    • October 7, 2017 12:20 AM EDT
      • E. Helena , Montana
         
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      Ok?? Now I'm a bit confused. I wish Barry had his computer up and running. He might be better with his analization than myself.
      You could be right in manufacturer name difference but I'll ask him again.
      If Aristocraft had changes in motor suppliers, I wouldn't have ever known until now especially If some were counterfeit. I am certainly not saying anything mentioned here isn't accurate, I just am going on what I am told and hoping there's some legitimacy to it.
      Appreciate the information and I'll share it with Barry.
      Maybe I misunderstood.
      Thanks, Ken
    • October 7, 2017 3:14 AM EDT
      • Carlsbad, CA
         
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      Sorry, the suspected counterfeit motors were in the GP40 and it's my theory, no proof other than circumstantial.. was just trying to convey that over it's history theres been a lot of different things that have happened.

      I guess you did not look at my links where I showed the part number shown on your motor was from a particular manufacturer and I even found that number linked with aristo in a note on a sales order...

      I'm sure you can find many similar motors... but I found the exact motor and part number. But if you found a replacement that is easy to obtain, that's great, do you have the information on the part number, where to order, etc?

       

      Greg

      This post was edited by Greg Elmassian at October 7, 2017 3:19 AM EDT
      ____________________________________

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      ­Click HERE for Greg­'s web sit­e
      PLEASE NOT­E: Please do NOT use private messaging, i­f you have­ a questio­n, feel fr­ee to emai­l me priva­tely, u­se regular­ email onl­y: greg@el­massian.co­m

    • October 7, 2017 6:47 AM EDT
      • E. Helena , Montana
         
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      Greg,
      This is the list and I see the L5FN and there is a similarity. As far as your number request goes, I'm waiting on Barry to give me that. He is in process of doing research and will let us know next couple days. I guess he wants to be sure he's got it right also.
      Ken

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      RF-5003.0V-12.0V∮3219.5 ㎜View
      M3N2.4V-24.0V∮27.832.5 ㎜View
      M5N2.4V-24.0V∮27.832.5 ㎜View
      M3FN2.4V-24.0V∮27.832.2 ㎜View
      M5FN2.4V-24.0V∮27.832.2 ㎜View
      L3N2.4V-24.0V∮27.837.8 ㎜View
      L5N2.4V-24.0V∮27.837.8 ㎜View
      L3FN2.4V-24.0V∮27.837.5 ㎜View
      L5FN2.4V-24.0V∮27.837.5 ㎜View
      J33.6V-24.0V∮27.846.6 ㎜View
      J53.6V-24.0V∮27.846.6 ㎜View
      J3FN3.6V-24.0V∮27.846.5 ㎜View
      J5FN3.6V-24.0V∮27.846.5 ㎜View
      M-AA6.0V-24.0V∮27.832.5 ㎜View
      M-BB6.0V-24.0V∮27.832.5 ㎜View
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      H3SN3.6V-24.0V∮3650.1 ㎜View
      H5N3.6V-24.0V∮36
      These are prev. ref. Id's.


      This post was edited by Ken Mathews/Imagination Station Kids On Track at October 7, 2017 7:01 AM EDT
    • October 7, 2017 12:07 PM EDT
      • Carlsbad, CA
         
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      Yep, that is the manufacturer I found based on the part number from your picture... Like I said, I found a record of Aristo-Craft purchasing these.

       

      Of course, over the years, Aristo bought different components for the same locos, and changed parts... if you can find a mitsui or matsushita motor with the same specs, that's another avenue for parts, since they are more commonly imported.

       

      I'm afraid that the double-ended shaft option does not seem as common from my research.

       

      Perhaps Bachmann will see fit to make the 3 axle blocks again... and then our parts situation will be rectified.

       

      Greg

      ____________________________________

      Be sure­ to visit ­my site, l­ots of tec­hnical tip­s and modi­fications,­ and you c­an search ­for topics­ and key w­ords.


      ­Click HERE for Greg­'s web sit­e
      PLEASE NOT­E: Please do NOT use private messaging, i­f you have­ a questio­n, feel fr­ee to emai­l me priva­tely, u­se regular­ email onl­y: greg@el­massian.co­m

    • October 7, 2017 5:10 PM EDT
      • E. Helena , Montana
         
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      Yea, it sure would be nice if Bachmann, as you said, would reproduce the 3 axle drive and even better if they could get rights to reproduce the Dash 9 and SD 45, (or design something new) They seem to be making other Aristocraft items like the Eggliner, etc. not to mention the fact that since they have never produced a large modern diesel, it would be nice to see a reproduction or new product along those lines.
      I think a lot of that previous stuff was all made in the same factory, over in China anyway.
      I do believe however that the Dash 9 was one of the most popular locomotives built by Aristocraft but then again the SD 45 was well liked also.
      It'll be interesting to see what comes down the road!
      Ken
    • October 7, 2017 11:35 PM EDT
      • E. Helena , Montana
         
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      Greg, Gary,
      Barry contacted me back and wishes to extend his apologies for not finding a part number for the Bachmann trolly motor that matches the Aristocraft 3 axle drive block motors can size, shaft size, voltage and amperage, contacts, etc. and he believes you may be correct in the fact that Mabuchi may be the actual manufacturer of this motor, among others. He believes (if RPM and torque of the Aristocraft motor and Bachmann trolley motors match) that the Bachmann trolley motor would be an adequate replacement for the motors in the Aristocraft 3 axle drive. If anyone has the capability to test these 2 things and see if they are similar we may have a motor that can replace damaged motors in the Aristocraft drive block. Incidentally, the Bachmann trolley motor has a double shaft also.
      Here is Barry's comparison.

      Aristocraft LD5FN 4412.OY
      Volts Amps
      10-------.20
      20-------.23
      25-------.23
      Shaft length, .700
      Shaft diameter, .088
      Some motor shafts were shorter at .555 due to Aristocraft using different manufacturers of their motors.

      Bachmann Trolley Motors (4 Motors Tested)
      Volts Amps/Motor 1 Motor 2 Motor 3 Motor 4
      10/ .20 .20 .20 .20
      20/ .20 .25 .20 .20
      25/ .22 .28 .20 .21
      Shaft length, .700
      Shaft diameter, .088

      Both housings are the same except for face plates/contacts are identical.
      Barry says, if RPM and torques match, that the Bachmann trolley motor would be an adequate replacement motor for Aristocraft 3 axle drive blocks.
      This may or may not be a future solution for motor replacement but it's definitely promising.
      Feel free to post any further comparisons.
      If you have any further questions for Barry, I'll be happy to ask him and post his answers here.
      Ken




      This post was edited by Ken Mathews/Imagination Station Kids On Track at October 7, 2017 11:53 PM EDT
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