Planning ahead here, but imagining that my layout will run multiple trains, and seeing all these cool things to sense block occupancy etc, I wonder what others are doing?

a. How to you tell the train to stay out of a block? Magnet? Light? Rock?

b. How are you sensing train presence? Magnet? IR? Microswitch?

Since one object of my exercise is to avoid track power, some of the existing solutions I’ve found seem not to make sense. I am imagining using an onboard reed switch or Hall-effect switch to tell the train to stop (with a permanent or electromagnet as the signalling device), or using a photosensor.

For block occupancy, I am tempted to go with infrared proximity sensors, but I am pretty up in the air.

Any thoughts or advice?

Use a screw driver stuck through the ballast or if inside the roadbed. Truly positive re-enforcement you are not suppose to enter a block. I also have a Yardmaster at Consolidated that will ask you in no uncertain tones as to what the hell you are doing in his Yard. Both factors have been tried and work very well with years of operational experience.

Michael,

Most of the battery guild are so r-e-l-a-x-e-d they don’t need block control, but what you could use is that old Brit system with a “staff”(baton) i.e. you don’t have the staff you’re not going anywhere.
Which always made me wonder how that works when you have two trains follow each other with a large interval, not two sections of the same train! , the later train would have to wait until an opposing train shows up with the staff???

Train orders? Seems to work well for the big guys.

1st class trains have precedence over 2nd class, which have precedence over 3rd class, which have precedence over extras. East bound trains of same class have precedence over west bound trains of same class.

Simple negotiation. The guy with the loudest voice wins. That usually works the best. We avoid batons for just that reason. It saves bumps on the head. :lol:

Are you really going to have that many trains operating at the same time that it will be a problem?

Ric Golding said:
Use a screw driver stuck through the ballast or if inside the roadbed. Truly positive re-enforcement you are not suppose to enter a block. I also have a Yardmaster at Consolidated that will ask you in no uncertain tones as to what the hell you are doing in his Yard. Both factors have been tried and work very well with years of operational experience.

I understand your yardmaster got his masters from his better half. :) ;)

I like the screwdriver between the ties idea. I did have to use that for a couple sidings that need to be leveled. (preventing a runaway)

Dave Marconi said:

Ric Golding said:
Use a screw driver stuck through the ballast or if inside the roadbed. Truly positive re-enforcement you are not suppose to enter a block. I also have a Yardmaster at Consolidated that will ask you in no uncertain tones as to what the hell you are doing in his Yard. Both factors have been tried and work very well with years of operational experience.

I understand your yardmaster got his masters from his better half. :) ;)

hey.... I was already a Master SOB when I met her.... :)

Wow! I see everybody is on weekend time! Yeah, the idea is that there will be youngsters running trains who would like NOTHING better than to smash em together. By “accident” of course.

Oh well, still working to get the rc interfaced with the motor control…

Hans-Joerg Mueller said:
Michael,

Most of the battery guild are so r-e-l-a-x-e-d they don’t need block control, but what you could use is that old Brit system with a “staff”(baton) i.e. you don’t have the staff you’re not going anywhere.
Which always made me wonder how that works when you have two trains follow each other with a large interval, not two sections of the same train! , the later train would have to wait until an opposing train shows up with the staff???

Staff and ticket, IIRC. The first train went through with a ticket authorizing the move and indicating that the staff would follow on the second train.

Michael -

If you are serious about wanting to do block control, I would assume you would want to do it with signals. If you run only battery with the loco wheels isolated from the track, you could set up all your locos as a dead short (or known resistance) across the wheels. With the use of insulated joints between blocks, train detection can be done like the prototype, by allowing the train to close a detection circuit for signaling.

Like Hans said, most of us that operate don’t worry too much about block control. In larger operations like Fred’s or Ric’s, a dispatcher keeps track of movements using train orders and location reports (usually by radio) from the trains. No signals are used on either railroad in my example.

If you will be running in a circle, rather than operating, then controlling multiple trains can be a challenge for a single person regardless of weather you have some form of block control or not.

I guess it depends on what you’re trying to accomplish with your block control. I’m making my tracks compatible with block detection because I eventually want a working signal system, grade crossing signals etc. I find that most of the folks who run Battery/RC tend to run their trains with some variety of “direct supervision” … meaning if it’s time to stop, someone’s applying the brakes. Whether that’s because you’re using TWC / Form D / Block Stations or an automatic block system of some kind that displays a stop signal, the person running the train has to stop it. That, by the way, is probably the “smartest” form of multiple train control system out there (although, indivisual components have been known to fail inexplicably and cause disasters!) On my railroad, the signal system will require whoever’s running the train to see the signal, and take appropriate action … there is no Positive Train Control planned or expected on the line.

Now, if you mean some kind of PTC system where the signal system, or other block logic directly causes the train to stop as it approaches the occupied section, you end up with larger challenges with battery power than track powered systems (here I include DCC as a track powered system) because when it’s time to start, stop, or change something, you have to do someting to communicate that fact to the locomotive without using the track … not impossible, certainly, but requiring some more creative thinking. DCC at least allows communication with each locomotive individually, but as you’ll see, figuring out who to tell to stop can be a challenge even to DCC users who would implement an automated system.

Here’s one version of human brain controlled trains with a visual signal system involving no track power … the “key” here works more like TWC than anything. (signal stuff starts at about 5:00, but the whole video is worth watching.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dW3mWF2WCyM

Note that he still has to stop manually.

To make this work, your “controller brain” has to know a few things:

1.) Which section is closed.
2.) Which train is approaching the closed section?
3.) How do I tell which train to stop, and which train to move?

This is a little easier with trains than other forms of transportation, because without a passing track, if the line runs from A to B to C, it’s pretty clear if train 1 leaves A, followed by train 2, that Train 1 will arrive at B, and then at C followed by Train 2. So, if the block from B to C is occupied, it’s pretty clear you have to stop train 2 at the entrance. The trouble comes where sidings allow trains to change places on the line. If there’s a passing track at B, and train 2 passes train 1, then the system has to know, now, that when train 2 gets to C that it’s now Train 1 it has to stop as it approaches to avoid a collision. That’s a lot for machines to sort out, especially if there’s no fixed rule on which train will proceed and which will stay … in other words, it’s easy to make “programmed” train running, but a system that’s dynamic and runs without a fixed sequence of events is not so easy if you can’t simply shut down the track. Even trains powered by DCC, without special equipment to report to the system which train is in which section, will have difficulty figuring out which train is approaching which block, and should therefore do something to respond to its environment.

RCS used to make a thing called the “Boomerang” … and there are other similar things around (Del Tapparo also makes one, I think…) where a battery powered train could be programmed to respond to magnets along the track … if you could make the red signal turn on a magnet, you could probably stop a train at the signal … but starting it back up again when the signal cleared might be a challenge.

It can be done … but you’ll have to be very inventive.

Matthew (OV)

Great inputs, folks. “Inventive” is what this is all about for me, so I’ll keep thinking about it… A driver of this is the discovery that my motor controller has a built-in limit circuit that restarts when the “stop” signal is removed.

There’s also a “kill” signal, that requires an affirmative restart.

I was hoping there was a standard system to be compatible with… but I guess I am on my own here.

Michael Moradzadeh said:
Since one object of my exercise is to avoid track power, some of the existing solutions I've found seem not to make sense. I am imagining using an onboard reed switch or Hall-effect switch to tell the train to stop (with a permanent or electromagnet as the signalling device), or using a photosensor.

So how are you powering your trains and what kind of blocks do you wish to control?

David Russell said:

Michael Moradzadeh said:
Since one object of my exercise is to avoid track power, some of the existing solutions I've found seem not to make sense. I am imagining using an onboard reed switch or Hall-effect switch to tell the train to stop (with a permanent or electromagnet as the signalling device), or using a photosensor.

So how are you powering your trains and what kind of blocks do you wish to control?

Sheesh Rooster, it is Kikereeekee Time! Wakey, Wakey!

It’s battery power and the blocks have to be secure. It will be just like the real railroads; the conductor will tell the engineer to go ahead and there will be a cornfield meet!

BUT there is another possibility, just like they already have in some cars, you get too close to the car ahead of you or coming at you the alarm goes off. Wire it to apply the brakes and you’re in business. Oh I forgot that means you need brakes! :lol: :lol:

PS I’ll be back on my electronic drawing board setting up operating schemes how to get the longest possible train into the dead end station and still be able to move the switcher.

Michael,

Are you sure this is not a solution in search of a problem?

@Steve Yes, you are entirely right! But for me, that’s fun. I am still in the early stages of planning both the layout and the electronics, so I am looking for ways to take things. But you are surely right that I am looking for (to me) fun things to add.

As I mentioned, it appears to be a very easy thing to implement on the engine side, so yeah, I am looking for the problem to solve, and, in the mix, add more interest to the layout. Of course, based on where I am in the project, I still have to actually get the loco to, you know… move!